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	<title>Comments on: Survey: Where&#8217;d you learn Old Norse that way?</title>
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		<title>By: Brandon Foster</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-79986</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 19:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-79986</guid>
		<description>Sorry about the near emotional outburst there. Your site is a god-send. It has everything I needed for beginning, all that Gordon had not provided.
Dank sei Gott.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry about the near emotional outburst there. Your site is a god-send. It has everything I needed for beginning, all that Gordon had not provided.<br />
Dank sei Gott.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-79977</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 18:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-79977</guid>
		<description>Hi Brandon, and welcome to the world of the conservative Germanic languages!

Your frustration is understandable, and a case could certainly be made for reform of traditional teaching methods, but I personally wouldn&#039;t throw out the baby with the bath-water by abandoning reliance on the thematic vowel and other elements that are no longer visible. If you don&#039;t know about front mutation and labial mutation, for one, both processes that were active in a prehistoric stage of the language and the causes for which have often disappeared, you won&#039;t be able to recognise why there are three realisations of the stem vowel in &lt;em&gt;völlr&lt;/em&gt; (&lt;em&gt;vallar&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;vellir&lt;/em&gt;), let alone predict what happens if you should decline the word. Moreover, if Wheelock (a fine textbook for learning purposes) hadn&#039;t done away with thematic vowels itself, you would have been able to recognise that the Germanic &lt;em&gt;a&lt;/em&gt;-stems are like class 2 Latin nouns, the &lt;em&gt;ō&lt;/em&gt;-stems like class 1, and the &lt;em&gt;i&lt;/em&gt;- and &lt;em&gt;u&lt;/em&gt;-stems like classes 3 and 4. But if you are looking for an approach to Old Norse that is more like Wheelock, you&#039;ll want to give Barnes a try (&lt;em&gt;A New Introduction to Old Norse, available online at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;website of the Viking Society&lt;/a&gt;). Unfortunately, you&#039;ll find that this textbook leaves space for improvement in a different way, as it doesn&#039;t number or distinguish between declensions at all but instead says &quot;here are the most typical examples of masculine declension, and here are a few less typical ones.&quot;

Now that I&#039;m actually teaching Old Norse for the first time (if outside the regular channels), I&#039;ve come to some new insights regarding the value of the various textbooks for teaching. I still think Valfells and Cathey is a rare treasure in terms of the theory it contains, but its presentation makes me very hesitant indeed to make my students use it. Most of my students already have Old English, but they&#039;re English Department (read: literature) undergraduates who are probably not ready for Valfell&#039;s full-on linguistic approach, and the order of the elements in Valfells and Cathey is just not something I find I can apply in class. I don&#039;t really want to use Barnes because of its move away from traditional grammar, yet it does more explaining than any other textbook, and it uses great examples. In some areas it is unrivalled, e.g. in its presentation of the prepositions. Personally I prefer to work with Noreen or Iversen, but I currently teach in an environment where students just can&#039;t be expected to read Norwegian or German. At the end of the day what I end up doing is give my own presentation of the grammar in class, then send my students home to read the same subject matter in Gordon. I also keep written versions of my grammar lectures on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://on.langeslag.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;course website&lt;/a&gt; to help fill in the gaps in Gordon that I think are bothering Brandon. Have a look, but be advised that these are essentially first drafts, so I&#039;m sure there&#039;s a lot wrong with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Brandon, and welcome to the world of the conservative Germanic languages!</p>
<p>Your frustration is understandable, and a case could certainly be made for reform of traditional teaching methods, but I personally wouldn&#8217;t throw out the baby with the bath-water by abandoning reliance on the thematic vowel and other elements that are no longer visible. If you don&#8217;t know about front mutation and labial mutation, for one, both processes that were active in a prehistoric stage of the language and the causes for which have often disappeared, you won&#8217;t be able to recognise why there are three realisations of the stem vowel in <em>völlr</em> (<em>vallar</em>, <em>vellir</em>), let alone predict what happens if you should decline the word. Moreover, if Wheelock (a fine textbook for learning purposes) hadn&#8217;t done away with thematic vowels itself, you would have been able to recognise that the Germanic <em>a</em>-stems are like class 2 Latin nouns, the <em>ō</em>-stems like class 1, and the <em>i</em>- and <em>u</em>-stems like classes 3 and 4. But if you are looking for an approach to Old Norse that is more like Wheelock, you&#8217;ll want to give Barnes a try (<em>A New Introduction to Old Norse, available online at the <a href="http://vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/" rel="nofollow">website of the Viking Society</a>). Unfortunately, you&#8217;ll find that this textbook leaves space for improvement in a different way, as it doesn&#8217;t number or distinguish between declensions at all but instead says &#8220;here are the most typical examples of masculine declension, and here are a few less typical ones.&#8221;</p>
<p>Now that I&#8217;m actually teaching Old Norse for the first time (if outside the regular channels), I&#8217;ve come to some new insights regarding the value of the various textbooks for teaching. I still think Valfells and Cathey is a rare treasure in terms of the theory it contains, but its presentation makes me very hesitant indeed to make my students use it. Most of my students already have Old English, but they&#8217;re English Department (read: literature) undergraduates who are probably not ready for Valfell&#8217;s full-on linguistic approach, and the order of the elements in Valfells and Cathey is just not something I find I can apply in class. I don&#8217;t really want to use Barnes because of its move away from traditional grammar, yet it does more explaining than any other textbook, and it uses great examples. In some areas it is unrivalled, e.g. in its presentation of the prepositions. Personally I prefer to work with Noreen or Iversen, but I currently teach in an environment where students just can&#8217;t be expected to read Norwegian or German. At the end of the day what I end up doing is give my own presentation of the grammar in class, then send my students home to read the same subject matter in Gordon. I also keep written versions of my grammar lectures on the <a href="http://on.langeslag.org" rel="nofollow">course website</a> to help fill in the gaps in Gordon that I think are bothering Brandon. Have a look, but be advised that these are essentially first drafts, so I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s a lot wrong with them.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Foster</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-79948</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 00:40:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-79948</guid>
		<description>I began learning Old Norse this year, in 2011. I just graduated high-school and have experience in eight foreign language classes- four German classes, three French classes, and a third year Latin class (I skipped Latin I and Latin II classes when I taught myself from Wheelock&#039;s over the summer). I did extremely well and take an active interest in Russian, Greek, Spanish, Old Norse, Icelandic, and Old English.
I came across a copy of Gordon&#039;s Introduction to Old Norse this past winter and have since translated many lines of the Snorra Edda.
I am incredibly offput by a few things-
I am accustomed to my declensions being organized for the purposes of learning, rather than being organized according to the Germanic (i.e. archaic, hidden, and no longer present) stem vowel.
Accidence in general should be represented according to variations- I find much of the information in the short grammar section redundant and confusing. The index of words also does not indicate to which accidence a noun or verb must follow, and I have to back track to examples in the texts to find out how it is used to guess which accidence each word claims.
I am experiencing frustration I have never experienced in learning a foreign language. Latin was incredibly easy- made even easier with the intelligent design of the textbooks I used. Wheelock&#039;s and Allen &amp; Greenough&#039;s are excellent, but Gordon seems to be lacking the same intelligent design.
Of course it has all of the information- it is just obscured by excess of undefined and unexplained organization.
As anyone else as frustrated with the lack of organization?
Perhaps I am incredibly spoiled and all textbooks are this way, but I sure hope that is not the case.
Regardless, I am enjoying learning the language, even when attempting it is like eating a cold, hard brick.
I would love an intelligent representation of the accidence, or even insight into how one can tell the declension or conjugation a word belongs to!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I began learning Old Norse this year, in 2011. I just graduated high-school and have experience in eight foreign language classes- four German classes, three French classes, and a third year Latin class (I skipped Latin I and Latin II classes when I taught myself from Wheelock&#8217;s over the summer). I did extremely well and take an active interest in Russian, Greek, Spanish, Old Norse, Icelandic, and Old English.<br />
I came across a copy of Gordon&#8217;s Introduction to Old Norse this past winter and have since translated many lines of the Snorra Edda.<br />
I am incredibly offput by a few things-<br />
I am accustomed to my declensions being organized for the purposes of learning, rather than being organized according to the Germanic (i.e. archaic, hidden, and no longer present) stem vowel.<br />
Accidence in general should be represented according to variations- I find much of the information in the short grammar section redundant and confusing. The index of words also does not indicate to which accidence a noun or verb must follow, and I have to back track to examples in the texts to find out how it is used to guess which accidence each word claims.<br />
I am experiencing frustration I have never experienced in learning a foreign language. Latin was incredibly easy- made even easier with the intelligent design of the textbooks I used. Wheelock&#8217;s and Allen &amp; Greenough&#8217;s are excellent, but Gordon seems to be lacking the same intelligent design.<br />
Of course it has all of the information- it is just obscured by excess of undefined and unexplained organization.<br />
As anyone else as frustrated with the lack of organization?<br />
Perhaps I am incredibly spoiled and all textbooks are this way, but I sure hope that is not the case.<br />
Regardless, I am enjoying learning the language, even when attempting it is like eating a cold, hard brick.<br />
I would love an intelligent representation of the accidence, or even insight into how one can tell the declension or conjugation a word belongs to!</p>
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		<title>By: kendra willson</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-68522</link>
		<dc:creator>kendra willson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Oct 2010 16:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-68522</guid>
		<description>Where can I find recordings of Old Norse texts with reconstructed pronunciation?  I have pointed out Raven of Denmark&#039;s performance of part of Atlakviða
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xagMYiZ2NP0) to my students and to an actor who planned to make an audition video in Old Norse in hopes of getting a part in Mel Gibson&#039;s film with Leonardo DiCaprio (I live in Los Angeles) before that project was suspended due to Gibson&#039;s latest scandal.  The only other recording with reconstructed pronunciation I have found online is a recitation of part of Völuspá recorded for Librivox (http://librivox.org/multilingual-poetry-collection-001/ - scroll down to Old Icelandic) by one Julian Jamison, an economist in Pacific Palisades.  Are there more out there?  Thanks for any tips.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where can I find recordings of Old Norse texts with reconstructed pronunciation?  I have pointed out Raven of Denmark&#8217;s performance of part of Atlakviða<br />
(<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xagMYiZ2NP0" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xagMYiZ2NP0</a>) to my students and to an actor who planned to make an audition video in Old Norse in hopes of getting a part in Mel Gibson&#8217;s film with Leonardo DiCaprio (I live in Los Angeles) before that project was suspended due to Gibson&#8217;s latest scandal.  The only other recording with reconstructed pronunciation I have found online is a recitation of part of Völuspá recorded for Librivox (<a href="http://librivox.org/multilingual-poetry-collection-001/" rel="nofollow">http://librivox.org/multilingual-poetry-collection-001/</a> &#8211; scroll down to Old Icelandic) by one Julian Jamison, an economist in Pacific Palisades.  Are there more out there?  Thanks for any tips.</p>
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		<title>By: Ambien.</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-64788</link>
		<dc:creator>Ambien.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jul 2010 14:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-64788</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Generic ambien pill appearance....&lt;/strong&gt;

Cheap ambien cr. Ambien cr. Ambien. Ambien and hormones....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Generic ambien pill appearance&#8230;.</strong></p>
<p>Cheap ambien cr. Ambien cr. Ambien. Ambien and hormones&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: David Lovegrove</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-61616</link>
		<dc:creator>David Lovegrove</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jun 2010 04:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-61616</guid>
		<description>I bought Glendennings &quot;Teach yourself Icelandic&quot; in 1976 after his foreword informed me that modern Icelandic speakers can easily read the sagas. Soon after I bought ( for the incredibly high price at the time of A$250 the Linguaphone Institutes Icelandic Course. I bought Gordons Introduction at the same time, a hard cover edition, but lost it in the early 80&#039;s and bought the paperback edition in about 84. The pages started falling out almost immediately but it is still a treasure. Meeting a number of Icelanders over the years has kept my interest ticking over (just, at times). I attended an Old Icelandic course at Sydney Uni which was excellent but discovered that learning Modern Icelandic is not encouraged and that there is a certain looking down the nose at the Icelanders normalizing of the Old Icelandic texts. I must say I cant see the point of normalizing them myself. 
I have met a number of people who studied Old Icelandic at Queensland University, the undergrad library of which was ( and I hope still is) a fantastic repository of books on the subject, many dating back over 100 years. 
Personally i am still keen to master the living Icelandic. It seems so much easier than trying to memorize huge lists of words and complex grammar.
The grammar of Icelandic has always been a major stumbling block for me, though now in my middle ages(!) I seem less daunted than I was.
It has always been my lack of knowledge of English grammatical terms and concepts that has held me back ( I am lazy I think).
I have two wonderful Icelandic - English / English - Icelandic dictionarys that I think are quite rare, both sent to me by my long time Icelandic penpal Guðrun ö
The main one is by Arngrimúr Sigurdsson and published by Ísafold and the small one is by Sævar Hilvertsson published by Orðabók Aútgáfan.

I intend to finally make the pilgrimage to Iceland soon and spend some time there immersed in the language and culture. Good enough for Tolkein, good enough for me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I bought Glendennings &#8220;Teach yourself Icelandic&#8221; in 1976 after his foreword informed me that modern Icelandic speakers can easily read the sagas. Soon after I bought ( for the incredibly high price at the time of A$250 the Linguaphone Institutes Icelandic Course. I bought Gordons Introduction at the same time, a hard cover edition, but lost it in the early 80&#8242;s and bought the paperback edition in about 84. The pages started falling out almost immediately but it is still a treasure. Meeting a number of Icelanders over the years has kept my interest ticking over (just, at times). I attended an Old Icelandic course at Sydney Uni which was excellent but discovered that learning Modern Icelandic is not encouraged and that there is a certain looking down the nose at the Icelanders normalizing of the Old Icelandic texts. I must say I cant see the point of normalizing them myself.<br />
I have met a number of people who studied Old Icelandic at Queensland University, the undergrad library of which was ( and I hope still is) a fantastic repository of books on the subject, many dating back over 100 years.<br />
Personally i am still keen to master the living Icelandic. It seems so much easier than trying to memorize huge lists of words and complex grammar.<br />
The grammar of Icelandic has always been a major stumbling block for me, though now in my middle ages(!) I seem less daunted than I was.<br />
It has always been my lack of knowledge of English grammatical terms and concepts that has held me back ( I am lazy I think).<br />
I have two wonderful Icelandic &#8211; English / English &#8211; Icelandic dictionarys that I think are quite rare, both sent to me by my long time Icelandic penpal Guðrun ö<br />
The main one is by Arngrimúr Sigurdsson and published by Ísafold and the small one is by Sævar Hilvertsson published by Orðabók Aútgáfan.</p>
<p>I intend to finally make the pilgrimage to Iceland soon and spend some time there immersed in the language and culture. Good enough for Tolkein, good enough for me!</p>
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		<title>By: kendra willson</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-53654</link>
		<dc:creator>kendra willson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:00:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-53654</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Paul.  I also recall generally liking Valfells-Cathey as a student.

I have not noticed an alarming density of typos or errors.  There are a few inconsistencies in normalization, but the same holds for Gordon and other textbooks.  The made-up passages in the early chapters sometimes present an interesting conflation of Old and Modern Icelandic perspectives: &quot;Þar er nú hǫfuðstaðr Íslands&quot; (18) referring to Reykjavík, &quot;Landit er fagrt ok frítt&quot; (18) citing Jónas Hallgrímsson in &quot;Old&quot; Icelandic. 

The selections from sagas present an interesting juxtaposition of &quot;greatest hit&quot; scenes and studies of the formulaic aspects of certain type scenes (e.g. goading).  I find myself explaining the plots of sagas excerpted badly out of order (which is fine) and sometimes apologize for the emphasis on violence, drinking and whales produced by the selection of memorable scenes.  There are some rather abrupt shifts in the difficulty of passages, unavoidably, and a few passages that are really difficult, notably the calendric confusion from Íslendingabók (233).

I acknowledge the &quot;vision&quot; of presenting a &quot;structure of&quot; course as part of a primer, and teaching a relatively coherent synchronic analysis of Old Icelandic morphology.  What makes the book difficult to use is its SPE-style postulation of underlying forms which are sometimes but not always the same as historical predecessors.  Now whole generations have grown up which know nothing but Optimality Theory, and I don&#039;t feel it&#039;s my job as their Old Norse teacher to explain SPE to them.  Given the relative lifespans of textbooks for philological languages on the one hand and linguistic paradigms on the other, I would not recommend undertaking to write an Old Norse grammar based on OT.  (While  European textbooks tend to contain a bewildering amount of historical material, I think that including a moderate amount of language history is good; presenting the historical background to some alternations will go nearly as far as a synchronic analysis in &quot;making sense&quot; of them, and our understanding of Germanic historical grammar may be less volatile than phonological or morphological theories.)

I admire Valfells and Cathey&#039;s boldness in introducting syntactic and discourse factors early on in the pedagogy.  These elements may be presented in an oversimplified or overgeneralized form, and the order in which they are introduced is not necessarily decreasing order of centrality.  For instance, the dative of material is introduced first I think because it is easy to create examples of it, but its density in the passage is unlike any &quot;natural&quot; passage.  In this, of course, the book follows the tradition of textbooks in philological languages.  The choice of syntactic topics also reflects the fashions of the time: I have suggested to my students that it may not be a coincidence that stylistic fronting is presented early in the book (58-59) and that Maling&#039;s (1980) seminal article on the phenomenon in Modern Icelandic appeared the year before the textbook.  

The textbook captures a particular slice of the history of linguistics.  Overall, as a reader it is serviceable if capricious, and as a grammatical presentation it cannot be faulted for being &quot;barn síns tíma.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Paul.  I also recall generally liking Valfells-Cathey as a student.</p>
<p>I have not noticed an alarming density of typos or errors.  There are a few inconsistencies in normalization, but the same holds for Gordon and other textbooks.  The made-up passages in the early chapters sometimes present an interesting conflation of Old and Modern Icelandic perspectives: &#8220;Þar er nú hǫfuðstaðr Íslands&#8221; (18) referring to Reykjavík, &#8220;Landit er fagrt ok frítt&#8221; (18) citing Jónas Hallgrímsson in &#8220;Old&#8221; Icelandic. </p>
<p>The selections from sagas present an interesting juxtaposition of &#8220;greatest hit&#8221; scenes and studies of the formulaic aspects of certain type scenes (e.g. goading).  I find myself explaining the plots of sagas excerpted badly out of order (which is fine) and sometimes apologize for the emphasis on violence, drinking and whales produced by the selection of memorable scenes.  There are some rather abrupt shifts in the difficulty of passages, unavoidably, and a few passages that are really difficult, notably the calendric confusion from Íslendingabók (233).</p>
<p>I acknowledge the &#8220;vision&#8221; of presenting a &#8220;structure of&#8221; course as part of a primer, and teaching a relatively coherent synchronic analysis of Old Icelandic morphology.  What makes the book difficult to use is its SPE-style postulation of underlying forms which are sometimes but not always the same as historical predecessors.  Now whole generations have grown up which know nothing but Optimality Theory, and I don&#8217;t feel it&#8217;s my job as their Old Norse teacher to explain SPE to them.  Given the relative lifespans of textbooks for philological languages on the one hand and linguistic paradigms on the other, I would not recommend undertaking to write an Old Norse grammar based on OT.  (While  European textbooks tend to contain a bewildering amount of historical material, I think that including a moderate amount of language history is good; presenting the historical background to some alternations will go nearly as far as a synchronic analysis in &#8220;making sense&#8221; of them, and our understanding of Germanic historical grammar may be less volatile than phonological or morphological theories.)</p>
<p>I admire Valfells and Cathey&#8217;s boldness in introducting syntactic and discourse factors early on in the pedagogy.  These elements may be presented in an oversimplified or overgeneralized form, and the order in which they are introduced is not necessarily decreasing order of centrality.  For instance, the dative of material is introduced first I think because it is easy to create examples of it, but its density in the passage is unlike any &#8220;natural&#8221; passage.  In this, of course, the book follows the tradition of textbooks in philological languages.  The choice of syntactic topics also reflects the fashions of the time: I have suggested to my students that it may not be a coincidence that stylistic fronting is presented early in the book (58-59) and that Maling&#8217;s (1980) seminal article on the phenomenon in Modern Icelandic appeared the year before the textbook.  </p>
<p>The textbook captures a particular slice of the history of linguistics.  Overall, as a reader it is serviceable if capricious, and as a grammatical presentation it cannot be faulted for being &#8220;barn síns tíma.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: M. Eule</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-50731</link>
		<dc:creator>M. Eule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 14:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-50731</guid>
		<description>in Zürich we use Nedoma&#039;s Kleine Grammatik des Altisländischen, but only to look up things, we have a small handout from our Professor as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in Zürich we use Nedoma&#8217;s Kleine Grammatik des Altisländischen, but only to look up things, we have a small handout from our Professor as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Langeslag</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-48520</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Langeslag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 20:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-48520</guid>
		<description>Hey wow Kendra, many thanks for the detailed discussion.

As someone who teaches from Valfells and Cathey, how do you rate the work in terms of accuracy (of both grammatical description and applied grammaticality)? I really liked the book when I first took up Old Norse, and I would certainly teach from it if the opportunity arose, but I have never yet sat down to evaluate its reliability. What worries me is that I have worked with Cathey&#039;s volumes on Old Saxon, which are decidedly substandard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey wow Kendra, many thanks for the detailed discussion.</p>
<p>As someone who teaches from Valfells and Cathey, how do you rate the work in terms of accuracy (of both grammatical description and applied grammaticality)? I really liked the book when I first took up Old Norse, and I would certainly teach from it if the opportunity arose, but I have never yet sat down to evaluate its reliability. What worries me is that I have worked with Cathey&#8217;s volumes on Old Saxon, which are decidedly substandard.</p>
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		<title>By: kendra willson</title>
		<link>http://oldnorsenews.org/2009/09/survey-whered-you-learn-old-norse-that-way/comment-page-1/#comment-48515</link>
		<dc:creator>kendra willson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 18:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oldnorsenews.org/?p=549#comment-48515</guid>
		<description>The beginning Old Norse class I took as an undergrad (at Harvard) used Valfells and Cathey (in photocopy - already in the early 1990s it was out of print) for the first half of the semester and then Gordon for the second half.  The professor was a generative syntactician who thought it was wrong to compose sentences in languages for which no native speaker judgements were available, so we did not do translation exercises into Old Icelandic.  In retrospect, I don&#039;t see how we can have gotten through all of Valfells and Cathey and still had time to read all of Hrafnkels saga and some other things in the same semester, although that is my memory of the course; perhaps the two of us who completed the course put in more time than my students are able to do, back in the olden days when we walked to school uphill both ways.

Now as a teacher (at UCLA), I generally spend the first quarter (10 weeks, 3-4 hours/week) going through Valfells and Cathey and then use Gordon for the second quarter.  Students who have experience with dead languages can (and prefer to) jump directly into Gordon.  I use Valfells and Cathey because most others like the comfort of a graded reader, but treat their grammatical explanations mainly as artifacts in the history of linguistics.  My own handoutage varies depending on the clientele - I get everything from graduate students in Indo-European to more typical American undergrads who don&#039;t know what a noun is, but as the class is typically of cardinality six or so I can tailor it accordingly.  Using textbooks not written in English is not a possibility for American students.

Some Icelandic friends have been shocked that I use Gordon, since &quot;It&#039;s so _old_!&quot; but I like its compactness - an entire language and culture in one small package, as one friend put it.  (When I was taking Old Norse I carried the book on my person at all times and could make use of any spare moments to look up words.)  When I sat down to list from my head the essential grammar points that a student in the first year of Old Norse really needed to know, the result was essentially identical to the topics in his concise reference grammar section, although there are a few places where his explanations are confusing.  I do, however, feel that the current list price of $85 is excessive for a paperback that tends to lose pages and whose authors are not collecting any royalties where they are.

I have ordered Barnes&#039; grammar as a supplementary reference, but like others who have commented here I find it unusable as a textbook.  It feels like 40 years of collected office hour conversations.  I am sure I would like Michael&#039;s office hours as much as I have enjoyed conversations with him over beer (well, almost), but pity anyone who would try to teach from my office hours.  John Lindow has compared the book to a bicycle magazine that discusses arcane points of bicycle repair but every once in a while runs a feature like &quot;How to change a flat tire&quot; - there are few pointers as to what aspects of the material covered are intended for what audience.

It is similarly difficult to teach from other people&#039;s handouts or lecture notes.  I have come to respect the tremendous difficulty entailed in writing a textbook.  Jesse&#039;s manuscript has gone through decades of revision and many research assistants, but it may not appear until Garðar Hólm performs.  I *love* teaching Old Norse, feel comfortable discussing Icelandic grammar on many levels, and have been teased by my students for compulsive handout-making, but have not yet found the one true note.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The beginning Old Norse class I took as an undergrad (at Harvard) used Valfells and Cathey (in photocopy &#8211; already in the early 1990s it was out of print) for the first half of the semester and then Gordon for the second half.  The professor was a generative syntactician who thought it was wrong to compose sentences in languages for which no native speaker judgements were available, so we did not do translation exercises into Old Icelandic.  In retrospect, I don&#8217;t see how we can have gotten through all of Valfells and Cathey and still had time to read all of Hrafnkels saga and some other things in the same semester, although that is my memory of the course; perhaps the two of us who completed the course put in more time than my students are able to do, back in the olden days when we walked to school uphill both ways.</p>
<p>Now as a teacher (at UCLA), I generally spend the first quarter (10 weeks, 3-4 hours/week) going through Valfells and Cathey and then use Gordon for the second quarter.  Students who have experience with dead languages can (and prefer to) jump directly into Gordon.  I use Valfells and Cathey because most others like the comfort of a graded reader, but treat their grammatical explanations mainly as artifacts in the history of linguistics.  My own handoutage varies depending on the clientele &#8211; I get everything from graduate students in Indo-European to more typical American undergrads who don&#8217;t know what a noun is, but as the class is typically of cardinality six or so I can tailor it accordingly.  Using textbooks not written in English is not a possibility for American students.</p>
<p>Some Icelandic friends have been shocked that I use Gordon, since &#8220;It&#8217;s so _old_!&#8221; but I like its compactness &#8211; an entire language and culture in one small package, as one friend put it.  (When I was taking Old Norse I carried the book on my person at all times and could make use of any spare moments to look up words.)  When I sat down to list from my head the essential grammar points that a student in the first year of Old Norse really needed to know, the result was essentially identical to the topics in his concise reference grammar section, although there are a few places where his explanations are confusing.  I do, however, feel that the current list price of $85 is excessive for a paperback that tends to lose pages and whose authors are not collecting any royalties where they are.</p>
<p>I have ordered Barnes&#8217; grammar as a supplementary reference, but like others who have commented here I find it unusable as a textbook.  It feels like 40 years of collected office hour conversations.  I am sure I would like Michael&#8217;s office hours as much as I have enjoyed conversations with him over beer (well, almost), but pity anyone who would try to teach from my office hours.  John Lindow has compared the book to a bicycle magazine that discusses arcane points of bicycle repair but every once in a while runs a feature like &#8220;How to change a flat tire&#8221; &#8211; there are few pointers as to what aspects of the material covered are intended for what audience.</p>
<p>It is similarly difficult to teach from other people&#8217;s handouts or lecture notes.  I have come to respect the tremendous difficulty entailed in writing a textbook.  Jesse&#8217;s manuscript has gone through decades of revision and many research assistants, but it may not appear until Garðar Hólm performs.  I *love* teaching Old Norse, feel comfortable discussing Icelandic grammar on many levels, and have been teased by my students for compulsive handout-making, but have not yet found the one true note.</p>
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